These Producers Have 800+ Million Streams, Here's Their Advice for Artists... feat. Chapters

Simon, if you only had one minute to give music artists the best advice you possibly could, what would you say? One minute on the clock. >> Dang. One minute. Oh man. Okay. Well, I think I would have to say that there's this really good Albert Einstein quote that said, if I was given an hour to solve a problem, I would spend 55 minutes figuring out the right questions to ask and then I could solve it in five five minutes. But I think oftent times with artists, they look at these hyper successful artists that have succeeded and they're like, "How do I do that?" at, but if they could upgrade their questions to how do I get my music synced in film and TV? How do I get my music to get in front of the right audience? And asking higher level questions, I think the answers will come to you a lot quicker. >> What was that? >> Well, that was 40 seconds. Holy crap. Whoa. >> Well, on that note, >> Luke, if you only had a minute and 20 seconds to give artists the best advice you possibly could, what would you say? One minute. >> Yeah. I I almost think uh uh being an artist isn't like a big bang. It's building a universe piece by piece until your audience is just pulled in by its gravity. You you're almost forced to to to acknowledge it. Um and I think a lot of artists uh in this vi virality world today expect a viral hit and then it's like now we're good where it's like yeah the viral hit is a part of it but that's only a small part of the whole pie. So, it's building the universe around it as well. The experience for the fan that's so important. >> Totally. Man, you guys are both so succinct. That was brilliant. I also love the the nerdy science references in both of you. We had Albert Einstein gravity reference. >> We're just nerds. Giants. >> Did you guys watch just took off? You had to do like something in science. >> It's on everyone's minds. >> So, uh you guys are collectively known as uh chapters. Uh, and you you you each have your own things that you've done, but like a lot of what you've done is like together as this this production duo, and you've you've worked on a lot of cool projects. I'll just rattle off some things so people know uh how amazing you are. Um, you've been involved in the music for Only Murders in the Building and then you I see This Is Us on your site and then uh Looking for Alaska, All American, Sunnyside, Road Trip, High School Musical, The Musical. I'm sure some of these are like sinks and some of these might be other involvements. Euphoria man from Toronto and going on to artists you've worked with uh Carpenters Gabby Hannah Olivia Rodrigo Madonna uh Fame Gos me myself and Vi and then Ardan Alexa and a whole bunch of other people and then uh you've also done like live show things like you've performed at the Grammys and also the Emmys um and you have all these like things in your site like you've worked with HBO, Disney, Netflix, Hulu, CW, Fox, etc. So, you guys have done a lot of things in the music world. Um, but how did you get into this? Like, at some point you were you were probably doing a normal person job, I would think. Uh, like you were working at a restaurant or something and then at some point you weren't anymore. So, like what was what was that? Whoever whoever wants to start off that question. >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's really interesting uh even hearing you say some of those credits back. It just floods back memories for for us. Um you we've been super lucky to have been doing this like together for about 13 years now. Um you know when I I moved out to LA in 2013, you moved in 2012, right? >> So immediately in 2013, as soon as I moved here, we started working together. Um and you know, both of us at the time we were, you know, we had apartments, we were trying to figure it out. Uh I was working at a golf course, uh like as a chef. um just having you know as many odd jobs as possible. And I think for for both of us the the goal was always how can we just make a living doing what we love. And a lot of years was it was a grind. It was eating soup every day and you know finding scraps just to you know put together some sort of income. Um, and as we've grown, the the clientele has grown and um, our experience and, you know, we've been really blessed with um, amazing artists to work with and amazing uh, you know, live shows that we worked on, different TV shows, uh, executives. There's so many different people that are um, you know, a huge part of why we've kind of gone to where we've gone to. Um, it's it always takes a village. >> Yeah. And to piggyback on that too, it's been a very slow build, but has been a really steady build too, which has been great. And how Luke and I met was we were doing uh we were working at a we were doing a summer camp in Monterey and we were just the people. We just grinded for the whole two weeks, you know, and they say there's no traffic on the extra mile. And like if you're the people staying later, getting there early, putting in the work, it's like you find the right people to work with, right? So that was kind of what drew us together in the first place. And as we started working professionally, you know, there's there's a there's u definitely a shortage of people who are willing to go the extra mile. So, if you're one of those people who are showing up early, staying later, or maybe doing spending like another 30 minutes on editing your vocal and melodine or, you know, like trying to get your kick to fit in the mix or writing this lyric, um there's there's definitely uh um room for you in the industry if you're that kind of person. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And you guys must have been like kids at that point, right? Yeah. >> Out to LA when I was 16, so I I was I was pretty young. >> Yeah. >> Whoa. Okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, >> Gez Gez. Okay. What is the summer program that you you mentioned where you met? Was this like a songwriting camp or some something else or just like a regular >> Yeah, it was called summer arts and I don't know if it was an all CSU thing. >> I think it was just a CSU thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so it was in Monterey Bay and uh composers or songwriters could sign up and then spend two weeks at CSU, the the the very luxurious CSU Monterey Bay. Um so you would spend two weeks there and they'd bring in different songwriters and composers and um I think even like uh like uh like film industry people at some point, but it was it it was a college program. So, uh, uh, we both went to the same university. So, that's kind of how we both found our ourselves there at the same time. >> Did Did you always want to get into the producery side or was there a point where you guys wanted to be like, I want to be a guitarist in a metal band or whatever? >> I think I already was a guitarist in a metal band. Yeah. >> So, like for for like was was the goal to make it in the artist world initially and then you you fell into the production thing or like was there a moment when you're like I want like you just you got into the production stuff enough you're like this is what I love most about music. >> Yeah. I mean actually it's kind of funny we have similar stories uh growing up too. We're both classically trained musicians played in orchestras. Uh my mom's a music teacher in the Fresno area. So um I grew up around music and you know she taught me really young. I started violin when I was about three years old. Um so I definitely grew up around music. Same as Simon too. I know he started really young as well. Um and uh yeah I mean it's just kind of grown from there. Um our college program was more geared towards scoring rather than doing records. Um but for both of us, we've always loved pop music. We've always loved doing songs and records, so we never wanted to lose that aspect of it. We still do film scoring as well, cuz that's definitely a passion of ours, too. Um, but we kind of found cool ways to blend the two worlds together, actually. We're we're doing a movie right now. Um, where we're doing all the songs for the movie. So, it's kind of like we're scoring to picture, but we're also bringing our our chops as record producers into this as well. Um, so we love projects where both of those worlds combine. Um, that's why we do a lot of work in film and TV, too. >> Wow. What was the first paying gig you guys got? >> Oh my god, I'm triggered. >> Very first one I can think of was actually at this very studio when we were interning here. >> And um, do you know in the Bay Area, the Blue and Gold fleet tours? It takes you under the San Francisco Golden Gate Bridge and like around Alcatraz and Pier 39 and all that stuff. >> I've only went to San Francisco once and we didn't get to go. We wanted to do this like boat tour thing to the Alcatraz, but we ended up not having enough time. >> So, we did a bunch of the the underscore for that. So, like all these people from all over the world would put on our headphones and there'd be a narrator in like English, Chinese, Korean, Spanish, German, French, etc., etc., etc. And they'd be listening to like now this is the famous Pier 39. This is Alcatraz Island. And every time you would go to a different part in San Francisco, the music would change. So Alcatraz was very like stabby and murdery and scary. And then like Golden Gate Bridge was very like heroic and like exciting, right? >> So we did a bunch of music for um that uh that tour, the 60 and 90 minute tour. And I remember the uh I got like 500 bucks to do that gig. And uh all the stems I didn't know I didn't know the difference between mono and stereo back then. So I sent all my stems in in mono and the mixer mixed all my stems and then they found out that it was in mono. So I had to pay the mixer to fix my stems and I had to pay him more than I was getting paid on the gig. So like my very first gig in the music industry like I had to pay to do it essentially because I had to pay the mixer to fix all my mistakes. Oh my god. Well, I guess the alternative would have been uh getting blacklisted if you just refused. >> No more als for Simon. >> Yeah, I've never again. >> I bet. Now, uh uh Luke, were you also in involved at that point or did you have a do you have a different triggering first project? >> Yeah. No, I I remember doing a little bit on that. That was mostly Simon uh doing that project. But um I I did grow up playing in churches. So I don't know if you want to count that. I I mean I don't know if I count that, but I I did like play piano in church growing up. But the first real music industry gig was uh probably well I guess first payment was from an artist um that I had kind of known through um uh high school and we started producing her and that was like I think one of the first gigs actually that we got. >> Yeah. So it was way more local. It's just like someone you know that, hey, you you guys you guys produce music, right? I need to make some music. Can you help me out? Yeah. And then you're just like, yeah, give me this amount of money. Sure, we'll figure it out. Right. And then later you realize you probably didn't charge enough or >> Yeah. been that way ever since, too. I mean, like you mentioned our website that we didn't even have a website until like the last few years. We'd been basically like exclusively word of mouth in the industry. like we didn't we have we've um never even used someone like you on on for our purposes to get our our name out there. We've kind of just been a little underground operation quietly quietly taking over. >> Um you know, which is I think a a brand in of itself as far as producers go. It's like it's it's it can be kind of disconcerting sometimes when you're doing a session and the and you feel like the producer wants the song more than the artist does, you know, want to post about it or or you know, it's like it's it's we're very artistcentric. >> So for us, that's been like the whole focus for our career is is being of service to the artist. So that's that's this is kind of like a new territory for us. But yeah, for for so long we were we were word of mouth specifically for that reason. Yeah. Yeah. I know. When I first met you, I think it was for probably a VI song. >> Yeah. Madden Savannah. >> And Yeah. And Oh, yeah. Or or Madden Savannah song. And And it was uh And then I think I Googled you and I was like, "Whoa, holy crap, you guys have worked on I mean, their stuff's cool, too, but you guys have worked on all the stuff I know by name as well outside of outside of their stuff." And um >> uh there's a lot of a lot of directions we can take with that. But you you guys get very involved with the the artists that you work with and therefore I'm assuming you've and I've I've met like a shocking number of artists that you've worked with now as well. >> Um but you you you've probably seen certain trends of like these people we work with and then they just kind of went nowhere and then these people we work with and they're massively successful and everything in between. Um, so like what what is what do you think is like the factor whether it be in the music or whether it be in the personality or the brand or the work ethic of the artists that you work with? The ones that like go nowhere or go somewhere and then like kind of fizzle out or the ones that actually turn into a sustainable artist career long term. >> Yeah. I don't know if there's like a like a hard and fast rule for that I can think of, but I but I know what fires both of us up is working with artists that just do not accept no. >> That do just do not accept no as an answer. >> That's tenacity. >> Yeah. That they're just going after it. You know, they're meeting with you multiple times a week about marketing and and how best to spend the ad money. they're working with us, trying to get their music out there, posting on socials, doing live shows that that are just absolutely grinding it out. So, um I don't know, like we've we've definitely seen people on both sides as far as success and and effort. I don't think they're necessarily always correlated, but um what really fires us up as producers is just people that just do not accept no and just are just go go go, you know. >> Yeah. Honestly, that's what I've seen most, too. Um you'll you know there's some people who I mean I'm often working on the ad side and and some people just kind of quit after the first thing doesn't work. >> Yeah. >> Or they they expect they should be a successful artist within like releasing five songs. >> Um I see that all the time. >> Yeah. And uh whereas the artists that get into it and like they they just keep do like they keep dropping a song regularly, whatever that means for them, whether that's like every six weeks or every eight weeks or whatever, and they're just they're just pumping out on socials and they're they're they're meeting with like as many people as they can to learn and they're they're flying around going to these like songwriting groups and networking events and they're trying to work with like to find the best producer to reach their vision. Um, I'd say the biggest trend is the not quitting thing is what I've seen personally. >> Yeah. A good good rule of thumb to live by is it takes 10 years to blow up overnight is the is is basically the the rule of thumb. And I think Sabrina Carpenter, too. I mean, like we've been listening to her for for like literally since 2016, right? The first Evolution album. So good. Um, and uh, just to see the massive success she's found in like the last two or three years after being at it for literally a decade. >> So, it does take a while to blow up overnight. >> Yeah. >> I never even heard of her until Yeah. >> Honestly, her old music is really good. It I I always really liked her her stuff. Even I mean, I love her new stuff, too, but her old stuff is my favorite stuff from her. >> Oh, and Wild. Yeah. I didn't even realize she was active since 2016. That that's like a very common thing. Like even before Katy Perry was Katy Perry, she was like a failed Christian artist or something. >> That's right. Yeah. >> You know, failed seems kind of mean, but like she didn't she didn't become like, you know, successful. She didn't like make a living off of it or whatever. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Now she's freaking Katy Perry and she's going to Coachella with Justin Trudeau, which is weird. >> I saw that picture and I was like, "What? This is a weird combination." >> Apparently, he like banned like some sort of plastics too in Canada and he was holding a red solo cup. So people are like going off after him for that. >> Of course. >> Oh yeah. Well, that was that was a weird thing to see. >> I do feel like um you know, jumping off of what Simon was saying too about your question. Um people that fall in love with the process of making music, I think that is something I see uh in a lot of the artists that continue to do it over and over and over is they just love the process. Um and you know the process can be tedious as as we know. I know the founder of Sununo came out and it's like you know the process of music is so hard and and it's like it is hard but that's the fun that's the funnest part of it is like you're in the middle of a record and you're you have it at 90% and you add with this one sound and it changes the whole thing. I think that that process is what I love and that our passion for just the process of it um I think carries us through those days where you're like I don't want to get up and do this. I don't want to because in some days it is tough to to do it just like any other job. Um but I think as long as you you retain that passion uh for what you're doing. Um those are the artists I definitely do see um continually you know making music and continually growing is when they love the process so much. >> And I think that helps too because you know they say the best way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time. So it's like if you're really into the process of it, you're not really thinking about eating the whole elephant. and you're just like, "Oh, I just got to mix it today." Or, "Oh, I just got to post today on TikTok." Oh, I just, you know, you're you're trying to go in that direction, but it it just keeps you uh in a bite-sized format, you know, just really trying to get accomplish what you need to accomplish in that day. >> That's true. You've probably heard this, people say this online, like, "Would you continue to make music even if you would never release it, no one would ever hear it?" And every time I see that I'm just thinking, "Yeah, I did that for like 15 years a producer. That's all your career is gonna be." Like, you know, we've released 300 songs or something on Spotify with different art, probably more. And like, you know, we probably have 1,200 songs total in the bank. So, like there's there's >> way more out there that have never even been put out, some of our best stuff. >> So, yeah, that's that's just being a >> Yeah. Even being an artist, like I I I've released like 110 songs or something on streaming over the years across my projects and my I counted up all my Logic files and Ableton Live files and I had like 1,200 >> Yeah. >> sessions. Not all finished songs, but like enough written enough to get to the recording process. >> Yeah. >> Um and most of them will be like, oh, it's a verse and a chorus. It just instrumental, but some of them have vocals and stuff. And so, and that's just because I've been doing music for 22 years, >> right? And I've been recording for four 16 since I was 18. >> Yeah. >> I'm 34 now. So, it adds up. But like I didn't start releasing music until 2017. >> Yeah. >> So, it's like for most of that time I was just writing in a hole >> and Yeah. Just having a blast. And to me, it seems silly when you you meet someone. And I've had people literally release their first songs and then five songs into remember they're writing a song, their first song ever, and then releasing their first song ever and then do that five times and then kind of get like frustrated that they're not moving anywhere. I'm like, >> you're essentially competing, so to speak, >> with these other guys who have written like 600 songs before they release their first one. >> Yeah. >> And did it for free and had no one hear it because they love it so much. You're not going to win that fight. Like if if you hate working out, you're not going to get more strong than the guy who just loves going to the gym and >> Yeah. >> What's the saying? Pushing metal. I don't know. >> Yeah. But no, that's that's a really good point, too. And I think as as artists or producers or singers or session musicians or whatever, um really tapping into those people, if you're newer, tapping into those people who have kind of put in those 10,000 hours because that's kind of how not that you get there quicker, but you can kind of learn from those people. For for both of us, our some of our first jobs in the industry were being like assistants to other producers and musical directors. And a lot of our workflow actually came from those early days. So being around those people, being in their being in their orbit, you know, it's like you you might not be able to get Max Martin on a song, but like even listening to like Mix with the Masters or like your podcast or meeting you and your team, there's like a lot of ways to tap into that 10,000 hours if you're just starting out. >> Totally. I mean, actually, another example you you guys have, you guys own this crazy studio where people can like rent out and go. And I don't know if that ever I'm sure people can like hire you guys. Well, actually, how how does how do you choose who do you work with? Because like it's not like you have like a booking form on your website. So, if someone's watching this and like, I like these guys and their music sounds awesome and I want to work with them. How does that work? Do do you just is it just through relationships or is there a formal way people can like book you guys, so to speak? >> Yeah, I mean, we're always looking for new artists to work with. So, we do have a contact form on our website. Um, otherwise Instagram is a a great place um to just, you know, send us stuff. Um, but yeah, we we love listening to new stuff, so we're always open to that. >> And I think a big thing, too, is making sure that the vibe is there. So, a lot of times we'll like have a quote unquote meeting, but it's just like us hanging out and chitchatting about music and like listening to music too because if you think about it and Andrew, you know, a lot of the artists we we're developing people like Ardan or Vi or Matt and Savannah and all these artists like they're we spend so much time with these people. Like for Vi, I literally slept on her couch for a week when I was in Toronto, right? So these are people you're going to be spending a lot of time with, a lot of close quarters time. So when we're doing that, we want to make sure this is someone that we could envision ourselves like hanging out with too. Like I think there is that like professional aspect of like, oh, making sure those boxes are checked. But there is kind of like a vibe you get in the studio, you know, and like you we we've all met people that, yeah, might be great, wonderful people, but just the the vibe isn't there. So, I I think it's like it's the same thing as people we want to spend time with that we would love to just spend more time with because inevitably you're going to have to have really hard conversations like I don't think this is the single or I really don't think this vocal performance is the best we can do. You know, you're going to have to have tough conversations at at some point and is this someone that's going to be receptive to criticism or be open to new ideas or push back on your feel comfortable enough to push back on us? Right? It's just it's all about like the connection and making sure that we're trying to paint the same the the same painting with just with different colors. Someone might have the eel, someone might have the paints. >> Just making sure we're aligned on that is so important to us. >> Yeah. H how do you guys well do you guys get involved at all with the like uh visual or branding aesthetic of artists as well at all or do you f like focus because the sound of an artist is such like a huge thing obviously which you guys are involved with like their entire sound effectively like that's the role of a producer and so that very like that kind of naturally dictates the entire brand of the artist or is that like a conversation that happens first where the like the artist comes to you and like I really want a record that kind of makes you feel like this that kind of sounds like this this this and then you're trying to figure out how to make all that work in their ecosystem. Um they're like developing a sound's hard. Developing a look is hard and some people already have a sound or already have a look and like how do you guys work with that with artists? >> Yeah, it's for for us it's always based off the music first. uh we don't really do any we don't do branding uh obviously uh ourselves but we do have different people in our network that we connect our artists to. Um but I think for us you know we could get lost in so many different things but that's why we have people like you in our network too. I mean we send basically every single artist we have over to you if they're independent just because we know you're going to get results out of it. Um we can trust you. I mean just having the same sort of people on the branding side I think is really important too. Um, but for us, we we stay very much focused on building the sound, um, building, uh, the business really as well alongside the artist. U, making sure their pro is set up, making sure we're getting, um, you know, stuff sent out for sync consistently. Um, so there's definitely different things we we focus on. We do in a way manage some of our artists. We don't call ourselves managers by any means, but we are executive producers, uh, which, you know, essentially means we're in charge of the whole project. So, we do feel responsible for making sure our artists are are getting out there and connecting to the right people. Um, so a big a big part of that obviously is the branding part. It's just not something we specifically do ourselves, but we have a lot of conversations with our artists about whether it be branding or marketing, social media. Um, a lot of it is more of like having the internal conversation with the artist and then kind of sending them out on their way knowing like we're all unified as a team and we all know kind of where things are going. Yeah, I think perfect example that of that too is Fame, who you've worked with now for for multiple years. And uh a big part of that with kind of defining what his brand would be like was us straying away from being like, oh, he's an Indian Ed Sheeran because that that it it comparing yourself to other artists isn't necessarily like the best thing to do. It's like no one's going to be a better Ed Sheeran than Ed Sheeran. But I think what was really helpful is when we all kind of decided fame is a warm hug. So you you you can really picture the music, kind of picture the visuals, you kind of get a a it's like an elevator speech, right? If you had two floors to sell somebody on your your project, what would you say? Like get it to 10 words or less. >> So a warm hug is great. Um so that kind of leads the charge. It's very high level. So, it's not necessarily about like the colors because I don't think we're like nearly cultured enough to do anything on that on that level outside of music, but I think a lot of it is talking about the feeling you want to get when you're when you're uh uh like listening to this artist or looking at their visuals. It's more about like the feeling and then the artist can interpret interpret that however they want. This actually what why I asked about the like if you guys get involved in the visuals at all because like every time you know I I meet an artist that you've worked with. Uh the way you kind of like describe them is always so like succinct and specific and it matches with their visual so well. For example, describing fame as a warm hug is like so accurate, >> right? Even down to like the types of videos he puts out on the thing. And so, um, I guess that just goes to when you're talking to the artist, you're trying to like make the sound that like they don't know. You're you're like basically your job is to to turn what's in the artist's head into real life. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> or make their vision as as good as it could possibly be or even help them just find their vision because I'm sure you have artists that come to you and they just really don't know what the hell they want yet. >> Yep. >> Exactly. >> Just depending. >> Yeah. I think Fame is always an interesting example because, you know, it took a a couple years to really build his sound. At first, we were doing kind of more darker. We had one song that was kind of EDMish. Um, very different from the fame that we know today. Um, but, you know, that's why building with an artist is so important to us. A lot of our artists, we've been with them for six or seven years. Um, and you know, as we got to know Fame a couple years in, we started to realize, oh, that that music is not who he is as a person. This is more of who he is as a person. And I I think the the music started resonating on a different level. It started doing better, too, just numbers wise. >> It found its audience. >> Yeah, it found its audience. It's um, and I think if you listen to a fame record, uh, it has a sound. It it feels very much like fame is who he is as a person, which is always the goal for us as producers is finding an artist sound. Um, and that's a lot of what we do is just like digging in and trying to understand who the artist is as a person and what that sounds like musically. >> Yeah. But pivoting a bit, um what is the what is like the economics of what you do look like in terms of like different revenue streams you have coming in to actually like you know pay for the fancy studio and and pay pay for the mortgage and everything you have I'm sure you have uh you know and we don't have to talk in absolute numbers just like percentages generally like you have like upfront probably just oneoff fees you get for doing work you have back-end royalties you have um your studio that people can rent out and you have your film TT TV sync scoring and and all that and then you have your live aspect as well. Um what's that breakdown look like for you guys? >> Uh it's so the breakdown it's hard to say percentagewise, but I think >> it's nothing and then a lot and then nothing and then a lot and then nothing and then a lot and then nothing and nothing and nothing and nothing and then a lot. It's weird. It's just like little spurts of in income. Like I would say like it's really forc us to have to become very good with budgeting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Everything we do is project based essentially and even even the um >> the recurring royalties that would come off of music is generally going to be paid out quarterly or by year like music music pays slowly typically. So >> yeah. Yeah. Especially on the backend stuff. Um, so for us, um, I actually feel like this would be a good technical thing to get into for your audience, but, um, you know, for us, obviously, we have the studio, which is, you know, one aspect as far as renting it out. Um, our studio is a little bit more of our workspace at the moment, too. So, we we don't rent it out a lot, but to close friends and people we know, um, we'll rent it out. So, that is one aspect of, you know, how we make money. Uh another big aspect I would say the the main aspect of how we make money is just through uh production through producing songs for artists. Um and you know typically an artist will give us a budget and you know that's for a whole project an album and you know it's kind of our responsibility to you know um depending on the deal but you know we're paying sometimes for players for a mixer for other people involved. So um sometimes it's broken down that way. Um but uh so the production fees would be another aspect. Um the obviously we have live shows that we do as well. Um we have um uh I guess the back end too as well as far as um ASCAP or SEESAC proy. Um that's a something that feeds us personally. Um which is really helpful because you know that's kind of us building our future lives and our families. Um and then so any any royalties essentially is is going towards that. Um and then the kind of DRO kit or master royalties is a big one for us too. Um so any points that we get on records or master ownership we get on records that also is passive income that um because of Drokid has been really nice to see a monthly payment and is pretty consistent now. Um, so that's something we can really rely on personally to kind of help us grow our futures um, as individuals as well as together as well, >> right? Yeah. Unlike unlike waiting on us to do our math on our on the orchard payments and then pay you, >> that's not that's not very reliable. Whereas the district at automatic payments, it's every month no matter what. >> Yeah. I feel like we were heckling you at the end of last year. >> Yeah. Yeah. every we we were like we just felt like like douches because we're like we're just like didn't have any time or like we have we have we have this money we have to pay people. >> Yeah. >> And then we had figured it out and we tried to get like an a for like a like a management like payment company to kind of help >> like that. Yeah. >> Essentially like an accountant for music. Uh and they like didn't want to do it the way we wanted to do it. So effectively it was me exporting everything from the orchard and >> Oh wow. >> manually calculating splits in like spreadsheets. >> Oh man. >> And then telling the accounting person what checks to write. >> Um but now we have a system and we have a new company we're working with. So hopefully it will be quarterly. >> I can't imagine. I I always feel bad for the people we hit up for royalties and I'm like you know how much of a pain in the ass it is. I always thought like you hear these stories online. It's like man like labels are so awful. Like they don't they never pay out and their terms are like pay quarterly at best. Sometimes it's yearly and then now I'm like I see why people try to make it yearly because it's so brutal going through that. >> Um there are paid tools though which is like what we're trying to to get to. But you guys it's like that for not just you but also for the artists. Like that's how you guys pay your bills >> right? And so even from like for my music, I have it in all these different distributor accounts. So I get it like effectively monthly. And it's kind of scary to think like you're just beholden to, you know, this this like you have this recurring revenue, but you can't access it until these different periods of time. >> Yeah. >> And even like pros, they pay out quarterly as well. And and that's quarterly is not it's not bad. It's just not really good. You have to be very good at like, you know, if you get 20 grand for a big project, um, you have to make sure that you like plan out your life pretty well. Yeah. >> Right. You don't accidentally spend too much and then all of a sudden you can't afford rent next month. >> Um, and I'm I'm hoping you guys are doing good enough where that's not a concern, but either way, it's like it's that's always a concern. I'm sure at some point you guys burned yourselves because you got paid a big thing and you didn't realize, oh like I'm not getting paid again for three months. I I need to like go take out a loan or or ask my friend for money. I'm assuming that's happen for money. >> Ask your friend Andrew for money. So, >> and it's uh I think for us it's always been our versatility that's been our our biggest asset. Um because you know even during COVID when the world shut down if we were fully or only in film and TV it would have been really really tough. Um, and we kind of used COVID in a way as an excuse to kind of not get away from film and TV, but kind of pivot back into doing more records, which is what we want to do mostly at the end of the day is do records for people. So, it did kind of force our hand into like, okay, we need to like fully work with artists now. >> Um, but the versatility has always been huge because one month of film and TV stuff isn't coming in, then, you know, maybe some records are going to come in or a live show is going to come in. Um, you know, it can be tough when you have to do so many different things to to make a living. But for us, um, because we've always had this end goal of like we want to start a label, we want to develop artists. All these things kind of came to fruition as far as, you know, we can do we can bring in a string player and we can write their chart for them uh because we've done the live shows. We can, you know, get an artist to sync on like Euphoria because we know those those agents and those people through our film and TV connections. So, it ended up like working out really well that we ended up doing all these different things and learned all these different aspects of the industry. Um, not only because it helps us diversify our income, but also it does help us achieve our end goal, which is starting a label, >> right? And you mentioned the this the same thing a couple times there. Um, how does one get into that for the first time? How does that for the first time figure that out? >> Like the f the first sink placement you guys ever got? Like how did it happen? Was it through >> was the first thing >> like a relationship you had or was like a sink house or >> I think March Madness was probably the first >> actually. I think it was the NBA finals. I think it was Rise. Yeah. >> Yeah. That was a that was actually a pretty cool first sync now that I think about it. >> Um yeah, >> your first sync was for the NBA. >> Yeah, actually the NBA finals too. >> Wow. >> Yeah, we had this song. So, we have this band called Gio, which is me, Simon, and a couple other guys, Isaiah and Jed, friends of ours from San Diego. Um, Isaiah is a singer. He's an incredible vocalist, one of the best we've ever worked with, honestly. >> Um, but we have this band and we just kind of make music that we have fun with. Like, it's orchestral, rap, rock, blues, EDM. It's kind of just everything we love. >> Um, and but it's all very sports and sync centered. Um, so this song off our first, >> if I recall it, it kind of has this like almost uh like imagine dragonsy >> kind of like uh like there's like big percussion in it like it feels kind everything's very like anthemic like so I can imagine why that got placed in sport. >> Yeah, very anthemic big huge records. Um but yeah, we we got we we've had a lot of sinks in the sports world. Um, but yeah, that's I think that was like one of our first syncs. >> And the the big thing for us was uh getting involved with these sync reps who are pitching for this stuff every day because the whole idea is that this is happening in the background while you're making your next record, right? This is all happening while you're working on something completely different or taking care of your family or whatever it is, right? So for us, um, some of our early partnerships were GSM Fier, which is Justine and Elise, uh, Blue Buddha Entertainment, Charles, um, Imperia, uh, Cody and Alec, and just all all these, um, really great reps that have really worked hard to get our music place, too. And then fortunately for us, there's been other opportunities because we have our our catalog as well that we've been able to me meet with supervisors or producers or editors that need music. So the other half of that equation is making sure your admin, your splits, everything's all signed off on, there's lyrics, everything is registered with your pro, etc., etc. Um, that's I think that's the other half of the equation of making sure that the boring admin business stuff is all all uh buttoned up. But that's kind of I think the two pieces outside of just having great music because that's a must >> is really having your admin locked in and really partnering with these people that uh can really support and champion your music. Mhm. >> All the names you you listed of people that have helped uh get your music synced over the years, did it just come down to meeting the right one or did you go somewhere and kind of like make sure you're bumping into the right person or or were you like working with a client that happened to know like was it word of mouth? Was it was it accidental? >> I think it was mostly mostly word word of mouth. >> Yeah. So, uh, our the agent that got us our sync, our first sync in the NBA finals, uh, worked with the other two guys in the band. So, they introduced us to her. Um, and then otherwise, you know, friends from college, um, people that we sat next to at like a dinner for our pro. I mean, it's usually, um, from what we've found, we're not very good, I feel like, at at networking. I just it's a very awkward thing to be put into a room and then forced to be like, "Okay, you have to talk to these people." It just always feels very weird. Um, not to say like you shouldn't do that or nothing can come. It's just never been what we like to do. >> Um, it's and it's just always been more of kind of natural relationships and um, you know, we've we've known a few people for a number of years before we even start working with them. Um, so I think it's important to just have that just natural relationship first and build that just, you know, naturally, not trying to force anything and then as time goes on, hopefully it like blossoms into >> opportunity. Yeah. >> Right. Yeah. A lot of networking is a weird thing. I think it it's it gets a little awkward when it's like, let's have a networking event. We're all going to go to this place and we're going to go around shaking hands and trading business cards. And I think really what it just comes down to is just kind of like hanging out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and just being a being just like a good hang really. >> Yeah. And I'm sure you can you can relate to this too. You know, we had an artist say like the pushpull method, you know, we're we're not like um pushing people to go listen to our stuff or do whatever. Like we're pulling them into our into our our gravity, you know, like we're pulling them into orbit. Um and it's We're attracting, we're not chasing, if that makes sense. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and there's definitely ways to go out and do outreach. Like I've done some of it for like I was there's someone who like I'll be like, "Oh, I want to talk to this person my podcast." And I'll go like send them a cold DM or find their email and cold email. But but a lot of it just comes down to like natural kind of bumping into people and then not necessarily being like, "Oh, we sometimes it is like, you know, we should we should talk about how we can collaborate and do some business together." a lot of times like, "Oh, hey, like you're doing some cool stuff. You want to chat?" >> And then it's like, "Oh, cool. This is a good vibe." >> Yeah. >> Um, let's get some barbecue. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That's what we did. >> The first time we met on on Zoom, I think we talked about like uh like emo pop punk hardcore bands for like 25 minutes. >> Yeah. Yeah. and and of someone else in my podcast, um Matt Matt Bacon, he he always says I forot something along the lines of uh one of the best things you can do for your music career is just be a good hang. >> Yeah. >> So like like go like go to the parties and and go to the stuff, but like don't get trashed and be a dick, right? Like >> go just like just like be kind of like a good pal and like don't make everything about oh we get to talk about business. just kind of like hang out. >> Um, and I think that's such an important part of specifically music, but really just every >> every field like when I worked as a mechanical engineer even then, like it's a very formal bureaucratic corporation thing. But if you're, you know, if people like you and you're making friends and you get along well with the guy who gives out the cool work, you get the cool work. >> And that's just how life works in general. So you you you hang out more and do business more with people that you like. >> Yeah. And I think a big part of it too is finding your tribe. And if you're going to the parties or the hangs or whatever and you really are just yourself, like you know, I I don't think like either of us are ever like the life of the party, you know, at at a party, but we're the we're the kind of people who are like hanging out. I'm like this is a good time, you know, like watching them do their thing or like, you know, listening to music. and you find the other people that are compatible with you and then that's how you kind of start figuring out if like the vibe is right because you're being yourself and you're just finding your tribe. You know, the the the person who's the life of the party probably wants to be with someone else that's the life of the party. You know, like letting those people connect, too. So, it's really I think it's it sounds really cliche, but really being yourself helps you try find your tribe >> so much more efficiently because you find the people that you just naturally just gravitate towards. >> Absolutely. Yeah, I I couldn't agree more. Uh, kind of a possibly controversial question. Um, you see all these talks from the Sunno guy, forget his name, Mike Mikey something, the Sunno CEO, and a few other big AI people where they're like, there isn't a studio in the world that isn't using Sunno or that's not using AI or whatever. Um, do you is is from your experience is that the case? Like do you guys is there is is AI part of your workflow or have you seen it in other producers or songwriters or artists workflows? >> Yeah, just about just about everyone. I don't think uh AI will replace musicians. I think musicians not using musicians using AI will replace m musicians not using AI if that makes sense. >> Yeah. Same thing for this. I think that's the case for the software world too. >> Mhm. >> Like a developer with using AI is just going to be using it correctly specifically is is going to do better than a one not. What what what how is it used typically? Obviously there's like stem splitters and that's one level. >> Uh and then like Soothe 2 is tech like an a machine learning plugin or whatever, but then you have like straight up using SUNO. So what's the spectrum you you see as being most common? >> Um idea generation maybe. >> Yeah. I mean essentially the way we've used it um is well one aspect is uh turning your vocal into like another singer because obviously we're not singers. So um you know >> you'll sing >> you don't want to hear us sing trust me. Um, but we we're uh working on this movie right now and you know the director wants to hear the songs that we're creating and it's helpful to be like, "Oh, here's like a more of what a singer would sound like rather than just our voice." >> Um, so that's one aspect that's helpful. Um, another that I found helpful, um, is just putting a song into Sunno and hitting remix and just being like, "Oh, like I wonder what it's going to do with this." and it just generates, you know, this idea of the song. Um, I was working on this song recently um where it used like a harp in in the the production and I was like, "Oh, wait, a harp would actually be really cool." I didn't even use the part or anything. It was just more of like, oh, like that was an interesting use of a harp. Let me try to use a harp now in my thing. So, it's it's more of an idea generator for us. Um, unfortunately or fortunately, however you want to see it, the um, you know, nose seek agents will really accept anything AI. Um, so in the sync world and most I know there's, you know, uh, stuff with DSPs too. I I don't know exactly what's happening there, but um, in the sync world, you know, they won't accept anything even if it's just a a replacement vocal. Um, they don't even want to hear that. So, it is a little >> because they're worried about the the legal liability. Yeah, legal liability and just the morality of it too. Um, I think, you know, it's it's tough to figure out where that kind of middle ground is because I don't think either of us believe in fighting technology. I think there's ways to work alongside of it, but also um I think the main thing that has always kind of concerned me with it is taking away the human collaboration of it. You know, it's I think that's the biggest thing for me because, you know, when you get even for us, when we get like a musician in like a violin player or a trumpet player, um they're going to add their own flavor to it. Even if you're they're reading a chart, they're adding their character to it. Um even for example, we were just doing a horn session for artist Ardan, who you work with. Um yeah, and he the trumpet player added these crazy like growls and like just little glistes into notes and AI would have never been able to do that. >> Um so just having that human uh collaboration whether it be between m other musicians or producers or songwriters. I think that's the the thing we want to always keep alive within music. Even if you're using Sunno alongside that um I do think just the the human quality of music is so important. >> Yeah. And uh kind of personal story too on a on a other different side of the industry but still in AI. >> We were developing this artist and uh we were on the road with him and we were in uh Tuscaloosa and the two openers for this artist um they had the same band. So it was our guys uh it was us and the band and then um the two openers had their own it was the same group of musicians. But I don't know what happened, but the the band and the musicians for the opening two acts quit >> between soundcheck and uh and the show. >> So >> So in like this couple hour window, >> yeah, there was some drama. So the openers uh came up to me and were like, "Can your guys be the uh the band for us, too?" And I was like, "Oh my goodness." to just like throw like 20 songs at them on the fly. So I asked them for MP3s and in between soundtrack and uh the actual show uh we used fader to take the lead vocal, the drums and the bass off. So essentially what we had was the BGV stem and the music stem and then we had the bass player. I just wrote out the chart for the bass player. Drummer just kind of shedded the songs in the in the dressing room. And then the artist we we played two 30 minute sets with songs we had never rehearsed before because we were able to use the backing tracks that Fader made. So it was >> fader is just like another like stem spplitting. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> Gotcha. >> Yeah. So that was really helpful that that came in came in handy for sure. >> Yeah. Yeah. I know a lot of people use uh Moises I think it is and there's also Lal I mean Logic has it own built-in sim splitter but >> Yeah. But yeah, it's it's uh that's one area of it that is in my opinion like people are being babies when they complain about it. Um a lot of people that complain about the pseudo usage they're typically not complaining from the perspective of how you guys have used and how the people you know have used it. It's usually like the well the biggest complaints is usually the people who are generating songs and as is uploading them to DSPs >> um and then doing that at at scale effectively. So like uploading like thousands of songs. >> Yeah. >> And essentially extracting money for the from the royalty pool cuz it in in in your case it's like I'm sure there's a like anti-AI purists out there who are going to like think we're both horrible. We're all horrible people for using AI at all. Um but but it's it's like um it's such like like idea generation and and hearing new ways of of a song. It's like to me that sounds like the perfect use for it, you know? It's like sometimes I'll listen to other music to get ideas too. Same thing, right? Like >> I'll be like, "Oh, like I really want like a breakdown in this song and but I don't really know what kind of breakdown I want to do." So, I just go skim through songs like, "Oh, like I really want something like that vibe." >> And then I'll go and do my own version of that vibe. Um, you know, and obviously trying not to rip it off directly, but >> but that's kind of how like regular music works when you don't have like just like sometimes ideas just pop in your head and sometimes you're like I kind of want to think about what do I want to do for this. So that's just a way to do that faster in my opinion at least. >> Yeah. And it's one of those adapt or die things I think as technology progresses you just will get left behind. And I think uh you know 100 years ago when automatic printing press came out it put it it put um the news it almost put the newspaper uh industry out of business or like the editorials or the the blog or the uh you know I guess what would you what would you call them back then like little like magazine clippings for like the yeah the editorials I guess >> you know before that it's like the aqueduct put well workers out of business >> you know so I think it's we're in like a in like a really interesting time of progress which is much needed too and what we need and what we're aware of what we want can be very different like Henry Ford said if I asked people what they wanted they would have said faster horses you know no one even thought about cars they were like this couldn't be they didn't have the vision for that right so it's like I think sometimes the technology comes first and how we use it comes later >> yeah yeah >> I think for me it's also like made me think of more ways to be more human with the art we're creating cuz why would I go and create the perfect, you know, pop song when Sunno can do that in five minutes? It's like I would rather go and make something weird and human and it's I think it's made our ideas even more uh us in many ways as well. >> Um, and I do see a lot of on TikTok especially, I'll see someone release a song and it's fire. I mean, we can't deny Zuno is crazy. It's really good. Um, and you'll listen to the song, you're like, "This is crazy. Production's wild. The song's cool, but you can tell it's an AI thing." And then there's nothing on there. All the comments are like, "Oh, this is so fire. So far," and then one comment will be like, "This is AI." >> And you can kind of tell, you can hear it in in the sound quality right now at least. >> Um, but I think that's one thing where the transparency needs to to come through of, you know, I do think that um people should know what they're listening to. Um, and if it's an AI fully AI song, they should know that versus, you know, just created by a human. I do think there's some transparency needed there. But, um, I don't know. I fully agree with like, you know, going against AI. So, >> yeah, I I I agree. Yeah. I mean, I want them to train it ethically so they're not just scraping every song online and training it without compensating people. That's that's >> yeah, >> That's another big aspect. Yeah. >> But, um, it's like that's solvable. Some companies have already done that um to varying levels of success. And then figure out how do you pay artists for their music being used for training and then um how do you disclose the usage of it fairly so that people are aware of what they're supporting and what they're not supporting. And um you know over time people will get better at identifying it because as one on one hands we're early and people like oh yeah in five years when we will tell the difference. I have a feeling it's going to take a lot longer than that. Mhm. >> Like a few years ago when chat GBT came out, people were like, "Oh yeah, in 5 years we're going to have like super intelligent AIs, whatever." It's gotten better, but it's this thing where like it's this diminishing return curve where like the first version was 85% as good and they invested like hundred billion dollars and they're like now we're like 5% better. I think Sununo was it's gotten it's come a long way, but I I don't think it's going to happen that fast. It's going to be noticeable for a long time. But my my guess is that people are going to get more invested in like the story behind artists more as the AI gets better. >> Like um it's already like you scroll on TikTok and you'll see a song and it's like oh this one I actually can't tell if it's AI. Like most of the time you can sometimes it's like if it's like an EDM genre it's pretty tough sometimes. >> Um and then you'll look at their page like okay everything's faceless. There's no story. there's no bio on SP like there's all these little red flags like I don't see a single person attributed or like there's one AI obviously AI generated image or AI generated video and it gives it away and I I think going forward it's going to be like people are going to want that backstory and they're going to like want to peek into an artist's life >> and hear the production like the making of a song not just like um the final product. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> It's a great opportunity I think for artists right now to tell their stories more authentically than ever. I think that's that's an amazing uh place to be in in many ways. >> Absolutely. Which is where you guys come in. >> Yep. >> So, how does one just make a song with Olivia Rodrigo? >> Oh my goodness. This is an interesting story, too, because we were This was summer 2019. We were really, really, really busy for a bunch of other projects. I was actually in Europe. I can't. You were like overseas somewhere or you were >> uh I was in Fresno I think at the time. Yeah, >> same thing. >> Middle East. Um but yeah, we were we were very spread out working on other shows and um we got the call to put together some arrangements and build a band for the High School Musical, the musical series cast because they were struggling finding um a band that uh were around the age of the cast. Uh in the previous band, they were all people in their like 50s, 60s, and I think the producers thought that that was kind of a weird look. um especially for like for the the video footage that that came out of it too. So we got brought on to do a couple arrangements and I was in Europe. I literally had to fly back to the States for like 4 days to work on it with Luke and then I had to fly back to Europe after that. So it was kind of like a double Euro trip. Um, >> yeah. >> And it was really interesting seeing her with the rest of the cast, too, because everyone was definitely talented, but there was like a star quality that like we couldn't really quite figure out. But like even when we got all the the Pro Tool sessions back from the from the sessions, you could hear her voice. she had. There's just something about her charisma, about her voice, about her personality that just really uh shine through more than anyone else. So, we were really lucky to do what uh we did Born to Be Brave, Wondering. I think I kind of, you know, and then the new um We're all in this together. So, we got to put a band together, ship them off to Salt Lake City where they were filming. And, uh, the band got to work with the whole cast actually, which was crazy. Um, and, uh, the drummer that we hired is still her, uh, drummer to this day. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. It was a full circle moment for us, too, because the original High School Musical was done here at our studio. So, we got to do the new one and the old one was done here. So, it was it was a full circle thing. >> Wait. So the like the first High School Musical movie >> the vocals were done here. >> Yeah. >> When What year was that? >> 2005 six. >> Yeah. Somewhere around there. >> So So that was before >> before us but before us >> someone else own Yeah. >> I was going to say you guys are like low 30s, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So I'm not yet. So >> Oh, you're you're under 30. >> I'm I'm late 20s. >> Whoa. Okay, cool. You guys are mid-30s now. >> Yeah, we'll say you're >> That's fine. >> Wild mild. That's cool. So So you you bought that studio from from someone else was already using it as a studio. >> Yeah, it was built in the 80s. >> Gotcha. Who had it before you? Is it someone that like the world would know? >> Uh not the world would know, but his name's Robert Irving. Um like Simon said, he bought it back in the 80s. He built it with Bruce Black, who also designed Capital Records as well. >> Yeah. Um, so he this where we're sitting in right now is actually the garage because this is a house. Um, so this is our main studio A. Um, then we have a live room with another studio uh right through this this area. And then we have another studio on this side of the house as well. So it's a bunch of different studios. Um, but the original owner only really had this space. Um, so once we bought it from him, we expanded it out as well to other studios. >> Gotcha. Wild. Okay. I have one more question for you because we've been going for a little bit. Um, someone is like, I want to be chapters, right? They're, let's say they're like a they're 20-year-old kid and they're like, I like it is my dream to to do what you guys are doing right now to have a cool studio to work with all these awesome artists to to get stuff sync and whatever. And obviously things have changed. there's a million answers here and no one's going to hold you to it if if you know if if whatever. But um like what's what's like the advice you would give that person? Like what's kind of like a quick like checklist of like do this, do this, do this if if you could imagine this like 20-year-old person who they're they're they're good at making music, but they they don't have like any clients. They don't have any kind of like like career defining things yet. There's so much I think um you know going back to um just the the versatility that we've been able to kind of um learn I guess through the years because obviously you need to learn all these things. It doesn't just come you don't just decide one day oh I want to do all these different things within music and then do them. You have to learn them. So, um I would say uh my advice would be um uh learn as every day as much as you can and and be a student um constantly even when you reach the the top of your game. I I hope for me and for for Simon too that we continually are learners of it and we continually learn from the people around us. Um I've learned things I would have never thought I would could have learned from an intern that was interning for us. Um, so I think always be open to that and um, yeah, I think just learning every day is such a um, uh, such a powerful thing. >> I think, uh, the biggest piece of advice for someone starting out would be to be a problem solver. I think there is a lot of clients we have that literally bring us on purely because we solve problems. I think this is especially relevant in the live show and then in the artist development too. You know, there's a million problems you're going to face to like, oh, the openers bands quit, you know, or >> or it's like, oh, how do we get x amount of monthly listeners or how do we grow this project, right? There's like problems, there's roadblocks. Being someone that can kind of remove those or work through them is really, really, really important. That's really how we've been able to secure ourselves as real key members of different teams that we work with either with labels or publishers or artists or like sync reps, agents, film and TV live, whatever it is. We've always been problem solvers. You know, there's a problem in the middle of the room and everyone's like, "What do we do?" And everyone's like, "Oh, oh, so weird, right?" you know, but really just really just getting in there and just and solving the problem and and really taking the opportunity to do that too. I'd say that's like the one thing more than technical ability, more than talent, more than really anything. It's something that we look for when we hire people on too. It's like, are they problem solvers? Do they initiate? Are they are they proactive with their solutions, too? So really doing that because it's it's hard and especially I mean if you're watching this you're you're watching it to become more proficient at your craft, right? It's it's and you're doing that in the service of helping other people too. So to be the problem solver to to be the one that can be like I might not know how to do this, but let's figure it out. Not saying you have to have all the answers, but like can we get our hands in the dirt and start trying to solve this problem is honestly indispensable. saw someone online say something along the lines of uh one of the biggest hacks you can do to get get like a head start in anything you want to do is uh do all the work that no one else wants to do because there's there's there's an infinite amount of like no one wants to do and so if you're the one that like makes a business around doing it, it could be kind of a good way just to get clients and you solve those problems and you you do more, right? like um I run Facebook ads for people. A lot of people don't want to run Facebook ads, right? So >> um and but there's a lot of other examples that I saw one person who like this isn't necessarily something they wouldn't want to do. They made a whole business around re-recording AI vocals. >> So for people who who were like producers who who didn't have like a real vocalist, they often will use like to make vocals to their songs, but they don't want it to have that like weird phasy sound, you know, like >> Yeah. artifacty phasiness thing that you get with with with an AI generated vocal. They want like a real vocal sound. They want to be able to point to a human and say like that's who did the vocals. And this person made like a whole business around re-recording AI generated vocals and made they were posting like revenue numbers up and they're like I made like $100,000 last year re-recording songs. >> Wow. >> Which was like brilliant, right? So >> y >> you need fill a need. >> Yeah. >> Exactly. Even for us, I feel like uh where we kind of got our start when we were doing records was really learning how the process of finishing a record and taking it from 80% to 100%. Because I think so many people have, you know, millions ideas, but it's one thing to have the 80%, but it's another thing to actually finish it and put it out and, you know, have it be completed product. So, I think that's something we um still to this day obviously do with a lot of our artists where sometimes we're brought full songs, but it's like we're missing the last 20%. How do we get to the last 20%. And so that's something that not a lot of people like doing because it is a little more tedious and um sometimes you got to try a lot of different things to solve different problems and um it's something that we actually really enjoy. So >> yeah, that it's very fun to start a new song, but then >> I don't feel that way at all. >> Really, that's that's probably the most common thing for artists is like starting a song is fun and then finish finishing a song becomes like a chore to a lot of artists. >> Yeah. >> Obviously not for everyone because you said you you feel kind of the opposite, but it's Yeah. It's like you get that initial inspiration and you have all these ideas and then you have to stop for the day or whatever. You flesh out those ideas and and then after it becomes less about spontaneous creation and more about like putting a puzzle piece together, right? Because it's like, well, I have this chorus and this verse and I have the lyrics for those and I have this intro, but it's like, but now I got to like write a bridge and like how do I end the song? And it turns into a different game. >> Uh, and some people don't thrive in that game. And apparently Simon does th >> like, "Yeah, let me finish your songs, bro. I'll finish all your songs." >> It's so satisfying. It's way more satisfying than starting for me. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you when you hear when you finally like do that export and give it that like final listening and you're like, you know, are you committed? It that's definitely uh a thing. But it's like when do you when is a song done, right? And that's like a lot of people struggle with that. Yeah. >> When is it actually done? Because it could you keep could keep kicking down the kicking down the street for like years, right? >> You never put it out, you never you never get a gig or anything. You never get any moment. So, it's it's a hard thing to decide. >> Yeah. >> Um, yeah. Thanks guys so much for coming on. Do you have anything you want to leave the people with? And we'll have your chaptersmusic.com link below. Oh, I forget what other links you had, but probably a link to maybe your socials and or your studio, but all that's on your site, chaptersmusic.com. >> Yeah, that's about it. Okay, I have an idea. Let's flip the script. We're going to ask you >> the music marketing guru, master, evil genius, not evil genius. If uh what was the question? The one minute if you had to start all over, would you do? Have you ever had to do this? I had to start all over again or if I had to if I only had >> one piece of advice. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to flip the script. We're going to ask you now. >> Yeah. Like an actual surprise. One minute. >> Okay. >> Yeah. We're getting the timer out. >> Timer. I got >> Yeah, I know. Welcome to the other side. >> Okay. Ready and go. My overall advice would be that you should before start releasing make obviously make sure your music's great. Come up with a release strategy that you can keep up with consistently. Whether that be every four weeks, every 8 weeks, every 12 weeks. Release that music consistently. Have as much social media content as you can. Ideally, you've already thought about your branding strategy so you have an idea about what your vision is. So, you can have social media content that fits with your music coming out regularly. Every song you drop, promote it with an ad campaign and see how it does. And if it does badly, spend less. If it does great, spend more. All the money that you don't spend on the bad performers is money you can reallocate to the winners. So that way by the end of the year, think of like you really want to think about your average for the year. And then some songs might get a hundred bucks and other songs might get 3,000 bucks. But you you you need to stop focusing on like this song has to do good. It's about like the the longer term growth. It's not about like how does this song do? Um so try not to get too married to your songs because some will just suck and that's just part of being an artist and some will be great. Wow, that was perfect. >> It's like you do this for a living or something. >> Awesome, man. Well, uh uh yeah, thanks guys for coming on. >> Thanks for having us. having us.