How Noah Kellman Grew to 200k Subscribers on YouTube

Noah, if you only had one minute to give music artists the best advice you possibly could, what would you say? One minute on the clock. >> All right, let's go. Um, I would say that one of the biggest lessons I learned is to first of all value yourself higher than you probably think. And the other thing is actually just to think of marketing [music] as experimentation. And that's sorry the re that that's an answer for both of those things. So when you are marketing and valuing yourself, you have to try different [music] things. try what other people are doing and then eventually it's like it's like a product, right? Unfortunately, you [music] are basically a product. So, you're not just going to set a price without doing any market research. You're not just going to do a marketing campaign just off the cuff. If you want it to perform really, [music] really well, you're going to experiment. You might actually ask other people what they think, people who meet the, you know, um, you know, [music] who meet the qualifications of what your greatest fan would be. Ask people for that advice. Ask them how they would value you and what kind of pricing they would [music] be cool with and ask them how they would respond to marketing. >> Sweet. Right on the dot. Great advice. And uh there >> you you have a you have a big audience online that you've built, I believe, entirely entirely organically. You have 200,000 subscribers on YouTube, 220 something on Instagram. Um, and if anyone >> Yeah, mostly mostly organically just to Yeah, I'm very happy to share that. Um, I part of my strategy actually was running small amounts of ads for a really long time, especially in the early days of my accounts when they first started. I actually did run kind of consistent ads and I did this little circular funnel where I would create a product, I would sell it, and I would not look at that as income. I would funnel that directly into just ads purely for the sake of building my following and reputation with people. >> Interesting. So I guess we're already already branching into something I didn't even know. Uh was that on YouTube or meta or both? Or >> both? Both. But I will say more on meta. Um YouTube I've done a lot less ads. YouTube has been mostly organic I would say. And I think the ads that I did in YouTube, I never really perfected what type of ads to do and what worked the best. So, it was kind of just a little bit random. And I I didn't really spend a whole lot there. But meta, I was pretty consistent with, >> you know, cheap, small amounts of ads, but running very very consistently. And people would say to me, "Man, you're always in my feed." you know, and that was kind of the goal was to to just give myself that little extra bump in traffic. And I think that in the early stages that really helps. So, whenever I've given people advice, I'm always like, "Hey, you know what? If you have a few bucks, why not get a little bit of help boosting your original numbers so that ultimately you do get more reach every time you post." Now, things have changed since then. things have changed. But >> yeah, I mean the strategy about, you know, running an ad and reinvesting the profits is a really good one. Like a lot of [snorts] people don't get that. They think like I don't know, they're going to like keep all the profits, which is cool. You know, that's a good thing to do eventually, but I think your goal when you're building something new should just be like growth until you reach some type of critical mass because um you know, if you're making money, then it's like you can reinvest that money. Now you're making money faster and then now you reinvest that faster money and now you make so like eventually you'll plateau and then that's the point where you and it obviously depends on like what what at some point you obviously need to make money to pay your bills, right? So there there's a line there too, but I'm sure when you first started you you had some day job and um >> yeah, I was I was playing a lot of weddings actually when I first started. >> Interesting. >> So that was that was kind of how I made money. Wedding gigs are funny because they especially in New York City, they're honestly oftenimes better than a some huge pop tour even because I mean maybe not experience-wise necessarily, but they allow you to just be home, go spend a half a day and make you know 600 plus dollars a gig. And like that that is >> that's a lot if you're doing it consistently as just a independent musician in in New York City, you know. >> Totally. How how many would you do do a week or a month? >> Anywhere from one to three in a week a lot of the time. >> Okay. >> Um and I felt really fortunate when I got put in into those gigs because before that I was kind of just >> working so much. I mean to be honest with you, I've always worked a lot and um >> but I do remember before the pandemic I had already thankfully built up a bit of um of a following online. I was probably like 20 to 30K on Instagram, probably about the same on YouTube, maybe 30, 40K. And then the pandemic certainly it helped me massively in two ways, which I think is an experience I've talked to a lot of people and they share it. The first way was a lot of people were online. Of course, that's that's the obvious thing. Um, the real thing that changed was [clears throat] I just said,"You know what? No more weddings. No more, you know, no more of these five things that I'm doing every single week just to make ends meet. And no more New York City apartment that is like at the very top end of what I can afford. Um, and by just kind of eliminating that expense alone and moving back to upstate New York during the pandemic, um, I, you know, I, full disclosure, I was also incredibly fortunate because my parents allowed me to stay with them. So, it wasn't like, >> yeah, >> you I basically went to zero rent, more or less, um, which is crazy. But even just the lesson of instead of $3,000 a month of rent, which is more or less what I was paying in New York, which is insane, especially for me back then where I was financially, um I went to paying, you know, even if you move to a smaller town and you're paying 1,000 or 800. It's like, whoa, >> where can that time go? It's the time really the time that you're no longer spending to make that extra really like 3 to 4,000 a month just so you can live in the city and have some semblance of an enjoyable life. And I think the thing is if you do that then you can really take that time that opportunity cost that you were spending on making ends meet and build something for a year, a couple years, be in the green, have a nice savings bubble. Um be reinvesting in your account which will not account but your your general um presence, your artistic presence, whatever it is. And that'll exponentially increase until you do hit the point that you mentioned earlier where you don't have to worry anymore. >> Totally. And honestly, that's that's not too I mean the the the whole moving back home thing and saving money like I didn't move out of my my I'm living with my mom until I don't know it was we we bought this house in late 2020, right? So the start of co I was still living there and I was uh that was like 5 years ago. So I would have been 29 when I moved out and I was working as a mechanical engineer for like se like many years while living there. So I had a great income while working at home with zero while living at home with zero rent. And all my early my earliest videos of marketing stuff and like showing running ads and and doing these marketing experience people like you know asking like how can you afford this? It's like, well, I have a I have a great day job, career, you know, and all that and and I have like no expenses. Like I had like a car payment, uh, which is a very fortunate position to be in, and not everyone has that, but um, a lot of people do, and they don't take advantage of it. Like they they move out of their home too early, or they they live in the city instead of living in a more suburb area or rural area when they don't have to. Like it's there's a there's a nice thing about living in in LA, right, or Nashville or New York City. There's a lot of perks with that, but >> a lot >> it's not a make or break by any means. Like even now, I live 45 minutes out of Boston. I would never dare buy a house in Boston, right? It's it's or rent in Boston. You'd be paying it's a difference of paying 5,000 a month for a shitty apartment versus paying 2500 a month for a nicer apartment, you know? Um Yeah. >> Yeah. And I think um [snorts] you know, sorry not to interrupt, but I think that maybe the lesson that I learned was actually this is this is a funny lesson in a way because I worked like a dog in New York for a really long time. And during that whole time I was convinced that I hated New York. So you know the first 10 years I lived in New York I was there because I didn't know where else to go. But I actually kind of hated it. I didn't really form that many new close friendships. And um ultimately at the end of the day, I just would go to bed every night kind of stressed. And it's just funny because after the pandemic, I think that the biggest thing that changed was now I had an income that didn't rely on me working 8 to 12 hours a day. Now my income I could control in my own way with my own business so I could work more normal hours and um because when I say 8 to 12 hours a day I mean on weekends too you know >> so after that I was able to be like first of all my work is much less stressful you know second of all I some days I can work five hours some days I don't have to work at all some days I'll still work 12 hours but you know the amount of freedom I had was so much greater and so what did I do I I went back to New York and I felt so much more comfortable spending money. And the last year I spent in New York was the first year of all my years in New York that I really took advantage of what New York had to offer because I had time and more financial freedom. And so I was able to go to the jazz clubs whenever I wanted and I could, you know, buy tickets to the shows I wanted to to mo, you know, mostly. And then um I could do occasional like musical theater or theater experiences, immersive art exhibits, do this drive over here with friends or participate in this really interesting weird opportunity that you could only do in New York. And suddenly I loved New York. It was so exciting and so energizing >> and I was having such a good time. Um and I love it here in LA too for for very different reasons. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and and so you're I'm sure you hate being called this, but an influencer, so to speak, you know, as as we all are. We we make content on the internet. Um you're online content creator. Uh and and like it started off like you you all his links are down below if you've never heard of Noah. I probably should have said that earlier, but uh you have a lot of awesome tutorials on jazz and piano and and all this stuff related to that. I think you have a bunch of music theory stuff, too. and you get into the whole how what's your like methodology behind building on YouTube and I guess in terms of that like how did you start and what is it how what is it now that you have this big audience like what is that that shift been like >> it's a great question because the truth is there are multiple phases of the answer to that question when I started it was very just off the cuff completely off the cuff and in some ways I was great and otherwise it was just terrible quality. But that was okay at the time because of where YouTube was and what it meant to be online and how much competition there was and who that competition was on the online space. Then I kind of got more into this I would say streamline professional version of what I was doing. Um shout out to my brother Sam who was incredibly helpful with that. You know he knew a lot about film. He's the one who introduced me to how to use a good quality camera, you know. Yeah. So, once I kind of got streamlined with that, I started to to develop certain strategies. And this is something that I think so many people don't understand. They burn out so quickly because with every type of content, they're always trying to just, oh, I have to make this today. Oh, I have to make this today. Oh, okay. I'm going to do this video this week. And they're always thinking dayto day, week to week. And I find that so exhausting. I mean that that would just burn up all my mental energy. So what I did and I I say phases because this worked really well for a long time and maybe doesn't as much anymore. Um but I would just do something that I think more people know about now, but frontload content. So, I would have a page on my Apple Notes that was 30 short form pieces of content that I was going to record and I would have four long- form videos that I was ready with. I already had the exercises written out. So, realistically, and this is kind of crazy, but it would take me about two days of work and I would have an entire month's worth of content, if not more. >> And pretty good quality, I would say. And that's because I would spend one day outlining everything. You just concentrate. You just focus and you come up with some good ideas and you do it. It it only has to take a day and then the next day you film everything. And yeah, it's kind of like it's a lot. It's a those two days might be a lot, but then you're just done making content for the month. And then I cannot emphasize overemphasize how amazing it is to work with editors and assistants. And it doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. I would say like it's not like you have to be spending $4,000 a month on editing. Um, you know, >> I'm super fortunate. I've had wonderful people I work with um here in the US, but I also know tons of people who outsource to other countries with wonderful editors, really talented, skilled people, and it's not that expensive just because of the currency value exchange, you know. Um so there are ways I would not psych yourself out about getting help. I think it's an important thing to do that can just help you completely blast off your business and the quality of what you put out and the speed at which you put it out and drastically reduce your stress and mental fatigue. >> I agree 100%. Yeah, that's been exactly my my experience with that too is uh my editing is pretty minimal because I don't have a multi- camera and and I use a stream deck so I can like perform screen edits like I I can just like click a button and you know now I'm editing I'm moving my screen share around and all that stuff but um I batch film I try to at least because I found that the hardest part about filming is planning a time to film and then actually sitting getting the energy to start filming. So, it's like when I when I'm in the mood and I have the block time and like I'm wearing like a shirt and I think my hair looks good enough to film or like whatever it is. Um, I try to just do at least two videos. I'm talking like full length videos or I'll film a video and then I'll film like course content or I'll film a video and I'll film some short form content and and try to do as much as I can in that moment. And that's why sometimes you'll see videos on my channel back toback where I'm wearing the same shirt. It's because I film them. Like in a perfect world, I'd swap out shirts, but I I don't always do that because like I f figure people don't notice or don't care. Um and no one's ever noticed or cared or if they did notice, they don't care. They never brought it up. >> Same here. Yeah, same here. Totally. >> And the editor thing like I also Yeah, it's not that expensive. Um, you you can make it expensive, but my the biggest hack I've found I would say for like an editor is um not everyone can do this, but like reach out to if you have an audience that you've built, like just reach out to your audience and say, "I'm looking to hire an editor and and like offer like a reasonable hourly pay, you know, for >> 100%." I found that a lot better than going to like a company that's like we're like a content editing company for content creators and we charge you this flat rate per video. Um, typically what those companies are doing is they're marking up the services of people living overseas by a ridiculous amount and they're giving you like unlimited revisions or whatever and then because they they offer that they just mark it up so much to account for the every so often person that charges that that really takes advantage of everything. Um, like editing your videos might take five hours. Editing my videos might take 20 minutes, but if they're doing it by the video, they're charging me for a Noah size video, not for an Andrew size video. >> So, >> sure, >> that's makes sense. And also, you know, if you go on like Fiverr or Upwork, a lot of the time you can find just an individual >> um in another country. And I've I've I've haven't used them as much for video editing, but I've had a couple people for like $20 completely save some of my videos or save some of my files. They they do some kind of thing that my editor doesn't know how to do or um there's some kind of terrible corruption thing that happened to all of my files for for my podcast. I'm like, "Oh my god, I lost the whole podcast with this amazing pianist." And I that actually happened once and I sent it to someone and they just I don't know how but they just uncorrupted all the files and it was like 20 bucks. >> Yeah. Yeah. Fiber is great >> for weird like tasks like that that you just need periodically. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. F like don't hire a music marketing company on Fiverr. Well, I will give the big red flag to that because you would literally go on Fiverr at a music market and occasionally find someone like like pretending to be me selling like $20 music marketing services and I keep having to go get them shut down. Um, but they just prop back up under a different name. Um, so it's very sketchy over there for that. But for video stuff, >> you can find your people. you have to like just read reviews and and stuff like you know there's people who will say they'll do stuff and then they they won't or they're like you know they'll do a very bad job but you can find awesome people on Fiverr too. And in terms of like when you go to create uh like ideas for videos uh that that are going to do on your do do well for your channel um or not just your channel but your business like what are you thinking about in terms of like what you're making like if someone's watching this and they're like you know I want to start a YouTube channel in the in the kind of music education space. You know I think it'd be helpful to hear kind of like how do you pick what you're going to be talking about in your videos? Is it with like an SEO tool like a TubeBuddy? Is it based off of your own experience what you're interested in or or what is it? >> Yeah, it's a great question. Um I do know people who do research, follow a trend, try to find their own angle on the trend. I never have done that to be honest. Um I mean every once in a while if something happens and it is important to me, I might do a video about that, but I'm not actively researching trends. For me, it really is more just what am I kind of excited about right now myself? And sure, sometimes that does require thinking, okay, what is a video I could do that I would enjoy? Um, so for example, that happened to me very recently. I didn't have any specific ideas and I was just like, what h what have I been doing? What could I do a video on that I think I would really have fun with? And I decided, hm, I just started listening to Keith Jared again. you know, I'm just legendary jazz pianist. And so I decided, let me start transcribing some of this. And I wrote down a bunch of his voicings and I started to find just how incredibly unique they were. He was doing things that I just had never really heard anyone do. And I haven't listened to him in that level of depth in a really long time. And my ear has gotten to the point now, I guess I guess it has continued to get better where I was able to fairly easily transcribe the voicings. Um, so suddenly I had a list of like 15 voicings where I was like, "These are so cool. I'm just gonna turn on my camera and tell people about them and that's what I did." And it's one of my best videos in a while, you know. So, um, I think another, you know, easy fast way to burn out is just to do a bunch of videos about stuff where you're just like, I better do this or, you know, like do something where you know what I, this is funny. I would almost think of it like how I thought of going on dates when I was single. Um, I would try to schedule dates either for a restaurant or activity where even if I was not having a good time with that person, it was something that I really wanted to do anyway. So, so yeah, it wasn't just a bad >> Even if the person sucks, at least the place is fun. [laughter] >> Exactly. Exactly. at least I can check this off my list that I did this really cool thing in New York that I've been wanting to do or whatever, you know? >> And I think it's the same thing with videos. It's almost like so even if I really don't want to do a video or I really don't feel like doing a video, I want to just choose a subject where it's like the process of preparing for it and then filming it is something where it's like even if I don't really want to do it, this is making me a better musician and I'm having fun with it. So, I think that's really important is like can you uh can you feel like even if the video doesn't do well or even if you actually hate the the part where you turn the camera on and talk about it, can you ultimately look back and be like, "Whoa, that video made me a better musician or it made me better in some way." Because it's nice because then you have like a really just objective thing to check off on your list and be like, "Well, did not enjoy that, but boom, I accomplished XYZ and I'm better at music." And so I can be like, boom, I just learned 15 Keith Jarrett voicings. And I do I feel like a better pianist and there are sounds in my ear now that I didn't have before. Thankfully, that also made me more excited to do the video because I was like, "Everybody check these out. These are awesome." You know? Um, >> yeah. >> But I think that that's that's just so important like doing it's like any job in a way, right? If you're if you can't find any passion in it, you're probably going to quit. >> So, you went to music school. Do you think one, it was worth it for you? And two, should other people go to music school? >> Damn. Getting into the the real stuff. Um, no. I don't think other people should go to music school unless they're going practically for free and I feel like I was someone who felt that way while I was in music school and I think more people are wise to that now. But um here here's what I'll say. I'll give you a quick rundown. So you know the Brebeck Institute was incredible. That was that was a free program. They took care of everything, you know, >> and not only was it free, but it was just one of the most high quality educational experiences I've ever had. So, for someone who's just out of high school >> and doesn't have much money, you know, like that is amazing. Do it, of course. If you get a full scholarship, do it, of course. But most people aren't probably going to get that opportunity necessarily. So, um, to me, the main advantage of going to school, there's a few, right? Actually, there's a few. One, the the the real world experiences you'll have with other people who will be your friends. So, friends, oh, I'm getting a little thumbs up. We'll do a number friends, >> I think. Yeah. >> Oh, no. I must have turned my Oh, no. It did thumbs up. What is it? Oh, there's double thumbs up as far as I forget what this is. >> Oh my god. [laughter] Nice, nice, nice. Um, but yeah, so you know, the greatest things that I got from school were friends and opportunities. So, I'm not crapping on school in general. I've had some wonderful teachers at the schools I went to. I particularly loved my master's program at NYU. However, and I do hate to say this, but I think it's just the truth. It is not even close to worth putting yourself in potentially years and years of debt. It's just not. It's just not. I mean, it's it's that simple. Like, I don't really care what the experience is. >> I Yeah, I agree. I mean, I ended up I went to college. I just went for mechanical engineering instead. I was like, well, what's a field that I that requires a degree that'll be like a pretty much guaranteed safe job >> that I'm still interested in. So, not something that I'm going to want to kill myself every day because I hate it so much. >> Something that like I'm also interested in. Um, and then while I'm doing that, I still do music. And, >> you know, I know a lot of people who go to Berkeley or other music programs. A lot of them go to Berkeley just because it's, you know, the name and all that. Um, most of them just have parents that are paying for it, so they're very fortunate in that way. um or they have scholarships and they're they're super talented or or they just they they did a good job and they got the right scholarship, right? There is kind of a game when it comes to getting scholarships, too. But either way, like it's it's expensive. And when I worked at Starbucks through college, um a lot of the people that I worked with were Berkeley graduates. A lot of them, like a shocking number of them were work and and the store manager had a music degree in performance arts. And I was like, this is so this makes me feel so good about not going to music school that like such a ridicul I'd say 10% of the people I worked with were Berkeley grads because remember I I lived 40 minutes out of Boston. So it's like and maybe like 30% of the people I worked with had a music degree and they weren't like in college music degrees. like they graduated with a music degree and they couldn't find any any work with their degree because there there isn't a job for guitar, right? There's there's not like a job you can go and get like if you go to school become a doctor, you become a doctor. You go to school for law, you become a lawyer. If you go to school for engineering, you become an engineer. Music's not like that. Art's not like that. You don't go to school for for art and then go get a job as an artist, right? So the job prospects are tough and a lot of people end up working in in retail and food service and then they end up having really bad money times money trouble just because of how expensive those degrees are. >> Yeah. So you know if I had to just break it down honestly based on what you just said if I had to just break it down I would actually tell everybody considering going to music school to just ask a very simple question. How much are you going to spend on music school? And what would that money do for you if you spent it directly on your music career? So, if you're about to spend $3,000 a semester, you're going to improve your skills, you're going to make a lot of friends, and have a wonderful experience. By all means, do it. That's pretty reasonable. If you're about to spend $30,000 a semester and leave school in horrible increasing debt, let's say for a hundred to $200,000, then I would ask you right now, what if instead you spent four years saving money, taking lessons with whoever you want, some of the best people in the world, still won't cost you a fraction of the same amount. hanging out with the best musicians you can and and making e an effort to be a nice person and befriend them and see them, you know, multiple times. And then when you feel ready, or at least, you know, 60 to 70% ready, because I don't want people to wait too long. Um, you'll never be perfect. When you feel ready enough, take the money you saved and whatever you would have spent on school and put it directly into your career. Put it into building up your platforms with ads. Putting into getting an amazing camera. Put it into um some amazing quality short form content. Put it into hiring uh you know Andrew's marketing team. Put it into um hiring someone as a consultant to teach you how to improve your career in general or your online marketing. do all of those things that I just said and you still won't have spent as much and you might already have a huge platform built with a lot of fans and a lot of cool stuff and amazing music and or amazing education whatever you want to do. So that would be the sum the summarized answer to your question. You could almost throw out all the all the first stuff and just like you know like that's that's >> how long is a college semester would you say like four months I think for a college. >> Yeah. Maybe just over so like it's 12 weeks. So yeah >> let's say you hire someone for $200 an hour which would be a c like kind of a celebrity music coach. I I don't I have no Well, I guess it depends, but like I know some people who have >> they worked with like major label artists on vocals or like they worked with so and so and they charge less than that. But actually, let's say they're 300. >> Oh, yeah. I mean, if you want like a celebrity, like if you want to get Anderson Pack on your record, you might have to I have no idea, but you might have to dish out >> 20 to 50K. I don't know. But um >> Well, I'm talking about just for oneonone lessons. >> Oh, just for lessons. Yeah, just for lessons. like hiring someone that's like worked with the pros um who's a professional teacher that's like $300 an hour. Most of them are less. >> But if you do that, >> I think 300 an hour is a good conservative >> 3,600 a semester >> and you're going to be able to work with like literally the best coach in that category. Um and again, even if they're 500 an hour, that's $6,000 a semester to work with them every week. So there's not many people charging over $500 an hour who do teaching at all. If they charge more than that, it's because they don't want to teach essentially. [laughter] >> Um so >> I'll just work with the person who is willing to pay me 500 an hour like a lawyer. But um >> I know I tell you people who do that their consulting rates are 500 because they don't want to do it. And and so that's not the person you would want to look maybe every so often, but that's not the person you you're trying to get every week. >> Yeah. actually on the the we're talking about courses and like finances and stuff. Um, as a creator, uh, we don't have to get into exact numbers or anything, but like on a percentage basis, like what is, you know, YouTube AdSense versus course courses versus um, uh, mentorships versus, you know, what is like the the Noah pie chart of of music income look like? >> Got it. Got it. So, I have kind of a four slice pie. Maybe maybe we'll call it five slice because there there's like a miscellaneous slice. Yeah. >> Um, and this is just how I've currently structured my business. I have um basically sheet music often with video examples, just these really specialized music exercises, and that's usually, you know, anywhere 15, 20 to 50 bucks. M so you know in a in a very kind of reasonably affordable place where you can get some really great specialized exercises with you know visual examples of of how to do them. So that's kind of slice one. Um these days not the biggest slice. I just I haven't even done one in a long time. Um slice two would be full video courses usually. I mean I actually have one that's like only around like a hundred bucks. It's a shorter course actually. A lot of time I keep it discounted around $67. But the video courses, you know, espec like the one I mentioned before that's just a a crazy amount of potential value. Um, that one has been 500 bucks for, you know, the last six years of its existence. I think that would be one of the bigger pies is people who sign up for that course >> um or one of those larger video courses. Then I have the next slice up which is people taking private lessons um as part of my business not with me but with some of the just I I have these amazing people that I work with who you know kind of they work for me essentially. Um I always feel weird saying that because I never think of myself as like a boss [laughter] but >> I know it's weird isn't it? It's weird. But yeah, they, you know, they work for me uh or in some ways on my behalf and they know so much about my teaching methods and they're amazing people. Seriously, like just could not be more grateful to have them. And so a lot of people take lessons with them. If I'm being super honest, like ultimately that's not a huge net profit for me, but it is so important to me with like community building. um employing these other people who make me literally more happy in my life. Like I love working with these people. >> Um and there is still some profit. Um and I think it again it just really kind of generates this community of people who aren't necessarily going to pay to study with me personally but are going to be part of our community. Um and then my final um big slice of the pie would be um kind of like you know as they call it in marketing high ticket um and that is the mentorship that I mentioned and so you know people pay a premium and they get a very premium experience. I mean I work really hard to um you know those people have access to like practically a school you know and so actually when you compare it to school [laughter] it's you pay for one class right >> yeah you you pay for one class you get multiple lessons per week you get um access to ear training sessions you get access to group sessions you get access to to texting us every day if you need so it's like Yeah, >> to me it's actually like when you really put into perspective, >> you know, other than the in-person aspect of school, which obviously we can't really replicate, >> um, it's actually pretty worth it and we work hard to make it really worth it. And I would say that that oftentimes is the most important piece of the puzzle for me in terms of income. The reason I added that other slice is it's uh miscellaneous. So [snorts] like YouTube income very small for my channel. um com you know compared to other channels it's usually somewhere like 4 to 500 a month you know I'm not like >> oh actually >> yeah I actually would expected like YouTube is low for me too but I I'm guessing it's because you're in you're you're >> officially in the music category on YouTube >> I am business and marketing category [laughter] >> so the ads that run on my channel are like marketing things and the m on the music category I think they get different um advertisers. >> I never even would have thought of that, but I suppose that that makes sense. Different ads cost different amounts, I suppose. But um >> if your RPM, do you know what your RPM is? Actually, the top of your head. >> I actually don't. >> Okay. A lot of music creators, which goes to like educational or just music videos, will get like a$2 to$3, maybe $4 RPM, which is just dollars per thousand views. Um my channel is like between 9 and 12 RPM. >> Oh. And I know I've seen people who are in like finance niches even in other stuff like real estate finance is like even bigger. Um >> and I bet you that those people also their sponsorships are like 20x >> in terms of pay payment as well. Like I I do not charge a whole lot for sponsorships. Um >> but >> I stopped doing them for the most part because I just Okay. >> They I just hate them a lot of time. I might do some going in the next couple months just to see if I don't hate them anymore. Got it. >> Well, my favorite way to do them is to do it with a company where I like the people. Um, I think it's a good product and, you know, I I typically these days I I turn down things like reviews because I don't I don't want to be paid for a review, first of all. Um, it feels like a conflict of interest. And second of all, um I just don't I don't love reviews unless it's something like kind of unrelated to uh payment because then I can just kind of tell people what I actually think. And I do try to review products that I actually believe in. Um but uh but in terms of sponsorships, like what I do still like doing is just the typical like, hey, shout out to these people. They got a nice app and they're helping me out by sponsoring this video and making this video possible for you. The last sponsorship I did, and I won't say their name, but it's very easy to figure out. It's um the the reason why I haven't done one in like a year since then is because they were basically just like kind of scamming my audience. They it everything looked legit. I looked into it. I I I used it. and I tested it out and but I didn't try this like bonus premium add-on thing because like you know it didn't seem like something that would be used very much and it it made sense why it'd be cool based on what the rest of the platform was and um it was like before I launched the video they added and expanded a few features and then made that like even more prominent and then I had a few people hitting me up like I'm pretty sure this is like this company just like ripped me off and now they they're refusing to give me a refund. They're not answering the emails and like I hit them up a few times. I was like like what the hell guys? Can you take care of these this these people? Um >> that's terrible. >> And we had another video planned and and like a couple newsletter blasts and social media posts and I was like, "Listen, I don't care what the contract says. Uh I'm going to return the amount of money you gave me and I'm pulling this video down." And uh they were like, "Oh, well your contract says you have to keep this live for at least this period of time." I was like, "I don't care. keep your money back. Not doing it. Like I'm done. >> Yeah. >> Um they threatened to sue me and I just completely ghosted them because I was like like [ __ ] you guys. Like I what are you gonna sue me and then I'm going to like tell everyone oh you're ripping people off or whatever. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. >> But that really burnt me from doing sponsorships. Like previously I was >> I've always been pretty selective. Like I've done very few like less than 10% of my videos if that if sponsors. Um, but this was like, man, like I vetted them. I talked to the people at the company. We've been working this for months and then it it turns out to be a sketchy company. It's like, >> yeah, man. Um, >> we've been going for a while and I want you to be able to uh >> leave the people with uh I don't know any any final minute words of advice. All your links will be down in the description that you gave me that your channel, website, Instagram. Um, yeah. What do you want to leave the people with? >> Thanks, man. Um, I will say this. Um, we are often times, not just as musicians, but as creatives in general, we're so often taught about how we need to get somewhere really, really fast. And maybe even beyond teaching, we just feel it. I I've always felt this sense of urgency, like I need to have a certain amount of money in the bank. I need to be able to play a certain speed. I need to be able to play x amount of pieces. um or I I I really want to join this person's band. I want to be able to play at jazz clubs around the world. Whatever it is, there's this urgency and that urgency creates stress and anxiety in everyday life. Or at least it did for me for a long time. And I think the message I want to leave you with, which is something I learned from um a coach that I've worked with for a long time, is ask the question, why do you actually want that? Why do you want to be able to do all those things? Why do you want to have all those things? And ultimately the answer for me at least was, oh, I just want all of those things so that I can feel good about myself and I can also feel relaxed about what I've achieved and where I am. So I just want to feel good and relaxed. That's it. I just I just want to feel safe and relaxed. >> Yeah. >> So the idea is you don't actually need to accomplish all of those things on your list to feel that. And so what that leads me to is the people who I know who were the most stressed about that stuff, >> some of these people are the most talented young musicians I ever knew. And so many of them are not still musicians. >> The people I know who just were enjoying the process, >> and of course this is this is this is a bit of a generalization, but it's definitely true. Um, the majority of the people I know who were just enjoying the process, they are still musicians today. And they were not, no offense to any of them, they were not the most talented people I knew, a lot of them, but they were persistent. They enjoyed the process. They became unique voices by not trying to be what other people told them to be. And ultimately today, they actually are some of the famous people that people watching this might even know. So relax, be patient, keep working towards your goal, and as cliche as it sounds, trust yourself, trust what you like. Follow the paths of what you like to create, what you know, what you like to hear. Listen to what you like, make what you like, and keep putting it out there and working towards your goals while enjoying your your life. Um, that would be my last little somewhat cliche words of wisdom. [laughter] >> Honestly, that was fantastic. Couldn't couldn't end on a better note. But yeah, Noah, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having me,